Official Luthiers Forum!

I am in the process of restoring a vintage guitar that belonged to my grandfather. See [url]http://grandpadownsguitar.shutterfly.com[url] and need some advice. As you can tell from the pictures the body has these intricate decals which I don't want to touch but the body has so many cracks that I've decided not to restore the body. However, the lacquer and clear coat (was clear coating used on '30's model guitars?) are cracking badly on the headstock and neck. Originally my plan was to just sand down the headstock (which I did today) and repaint but now I'm thinking I should go ahead and sand down the entire neck. I want to repaint to match (as closely as possible) the sunburst paint job. My questions are these: 1.) Should I be able to match the original colors using the Stewart-MacDonald nitrocellulose lacquer spray paints (Tobacco brown and a clear coat) and if not, what should I consider?. 2.) Should I apply a sealer to the wood before painting? 3.) What advice can you give me regarding the fretboard? It appears to have been made of the same wood as the guitar (birch??). There are some pretty "good" grooves in the fretboard made by the pressure of the fingers/strings. It's going to require some filing/sanding. 4.) What can I do to prevent damaging the fretmark inlays at the 5th, 7th, 9th and 12th frets? I can't tell what they're made of.
I've been told this was an inexpensive student model guitar and is not worth much in terms of $. However, it did belong to my grandfather who passed away over 30 years ago. To me it's worth restoring to the point where it resembles the instrument he played just before he lost the use of most of his fingers in 1960. After that he placed it in his closet where the elements took their toll. I don't believe it can be made playable without addressing the cracks and that becomes more expensive than I want it to be. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

From what I see the fret board appears to be thin veneer which was common on cheap guitars through the early 70's. Though it could also just be black stain on the fretboard I think I see some hide glue under it were it wore away in one of the pics. The veneer may not even be ebony. If it is a veneer there is no repair for it, it will need replaced. You can try and replace sections between frets but I have no idea how that will work as when you pull up the veneer there will most likely not be much fret tang left in the wood and they may pop out. If it is not a veneer then I don't know..... low end guitars were not made with service in mind. The fret markers are likely celluloid and are the same thickness as the veneer. For the finish touch ups on the bare wood..... the SM rattle cans will work but will most likely not be a very good match. The new finish will look shiny and new against the old and worn, the color will most likely be off a bit as well. And yes the bare wood will need sealer, and most likely some type of filler to deal with the checking I see in the wood itself. The decals on the body actually look to be in part if not entirely hand painted. Most likely stenciled and then detailed. They may not even have a clearcoat over them so be careful there. Good luck.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian,
I took some more photos tonight and posted them on the website. I also measured the thickness of the fretboard; it is 4.5mm. There is a stain penetrating roughly 0.5mm of that surface. That's why you can see the bare wood exposed by the finger pressure on the strings. Can I file/sand this since it's not a veneer and restain with something like Fiebing's Black Fingerboard Stain. And without removing the fretwires? Please remember that I only want to improve the appearance before hanging it on the wall. I don't think the guitar would survive stringing to a normal tension. My thought is to put on a set of steel and steel/silk strings but with just barely enough tension to produce a note.
Thanks for your comments and advice. I'm ready for more if you have the time. Tom

OK, now I see. I mention veneer because the first guitar I tried to re-fret had a thin veneer for a fret board and everything else was neck. I suppose you could scrape and re stain as you propose. I would likely consider filling in the finger wear with something like black epoxy as scraping out material all the way to the frets will not be easy. I think it may look better in the end. Or you could just stain the damaged areas so they blend in and call it good since playability is not a concern.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian,
I sanded the first fret today which was easy because there is no nut to interfere with the block sander. Of course I realize now the difficulty of proceeding because of the frets. They will need to come out in order to do this properly. However, they are probably unique and unlike most frets you see on guitars today. They look like they're made of brass and are soft (you can easily see the wear). Am I likely to find suitable replacements that are true to the original? From the material I've read and the videos I've seen, the frets on current instruments were glued in and require a heat source (soldering gun tip) to soften the glue. Would the frets of a guitar of this age (mid to late '30s) have been installed using glue also?
If I remove the frets very carefully, can I expect to be able to reuse them (assuming I can't find similar frets anywhere)? They are nearly flat as the fretboard has little if any curvature as you may be able to see in some of the photos.

Again, sorry for all the questions, but I'm determined to do this. To see pictures of the sanding you'll have to return to the website. I've tried posting pictures here, but I've been unsuccessful every time.
Tom

To pull frets you will need to use some heat, glue or no glue. Otherwise you risk tearing up the fret board. You will need fret pullers as well. If you are careful you can re use the frets. The slots may need made deeper as well. I must caution you here.....I destroyed a few guitars learning to re fret, there is quite a learning curve, I echo Todd's advice on this. The frets look like nickel, just regular frets they are just really old and tarnished. Again, best of luck.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian,

I swallowed hard, had a drink of wine and went for it. I posted a few photos on http://grandpadownsguitar.shutterfly.com.
Let me know what you think. Seven frets down and eleven more to go. Don't know yet whether I'll be reusing the originals or not. I distorted a couple in the process. You say you believe the frets are similar to fretwire still used today. After seeing them removed do you still believe that? Just curious. I'm still searching books and the internet for pictures of the instrument as it appeared new.

Thanks again for your feedback/input. I really appreciate your expert opinion.....and anyone else who wants to offer advice/suggestions.

Tom

Yep, those are frets with tangs just like are used today.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I finally took a look at some of your pics and it is obvious that your grandpa really loved playing that guitar! The wear and patina are awesome. I hope you can do it justice with your repairs.
I don't know if the fretboard is radiused currently, but if it is, you will flatten it completely by block sanding it to remove the wear. You need to get a radiused sanding block to match the radius of the fret board in order to maintain the proper curve on the board as you sand out the damage. It looks pretty flat in the pics, but make sure it is or is not before you change it by sanding.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

They don't resemble in color or size the frets I have on my other guitars one of which was made in the mid 60s. I posted a close-up photo of one of the frets which shows its width... 1 millimeter http://grandpadownsguitar.shutterfly.com. The frets on my other instruments are at least twice that. The depth measurement on this fret (for what it's worth) is about 2.25~2.5mm.

One person who analyzed pictures of the guitar earlier this month wrote back to say that it was a "very inexpensive student model instrument" built in the mid to late '30s. He also said no matter the amount of money I spent restoring it, the sound produced by it would be "not pleasing to the hear" (my words, not his).

Is it possible during the depression, that they would have used less expensive components in an instrument for beginners?
And again, no matter where I scratch the fret, they have a brass color. Maybe brass was "inexpensive" during that period???
I'm reading some books on vintage instruments looking for clues as to the manufacturer of his guitar and the catalog descriptions often mention "an ebonized fingerboard and bridge". Is that just a black stain? Used on cheaper instruments maybe before better woods were "discovered" and used? Just wondering!
Thanks, as always, Tom

Tony, Thanks for the precautionary advice. The fretboard is very flat and in fact the last couple frets (at the body) are concave??... lower in the center than along the edges. See my posted reply to Brian regarding the "inexpensive" diagnosis provided by one very reputable vintage guitar source.
When sanding how can I protect the inlays at the 5, 7, 9 & 12th frets?
Thanks, Tom

Fret size has gotten generally larger over the years. If you look at a fret wire chart you will see how many sizes are available. Could they be brass? I suppose though I have not seen Any brass frets. Even the old bar frets were nickle as far as I know.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian,
I've been in contact with someone on the Harmony guitar forum and they said they had a couple of Harmony instruments that have brass frets. I've been reading too that they may have been standard on older mandolins and possibly banjos? Don't know that for a fact. As you may be able to see they are very small and I would like to replace them with something that is true to the original if possible (they were destroyed in the removal process). So now I'm off to learn what's available.
Tom

EVO fret wire has a gold look, could maybe pass for brass, maybe, it's pretty bright. It's also harder and more difficult to work.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I've finished with the first sanding pass over the fretboard with 100 grit and have returned it to level (yes, I said level). This depression-era guitar was made on the cheap it appears.. with a flat (or nearly so) fretboard and frets that resembled toothpicks. I need to know what "sandpaper progressions" I should use before I ebonize.
Thanks, Tom

Many of these older cheaper instruments have ebonized fingerboards that are maple, boxwood and even beech. Boxwood and beech were and are still used for chisel and tool handles. Very tough stuff. Yours looks like beech. For re-dying these fingerboards I use Fiebings Leather oil dye. They did use a low quality brass fretwire back then. Many of those old taterbug mandolin and cheap ukes used it. Dunlop still sells brass fretwire it's part #6180...Mike
http://www.guitarpartsresource.com/hard ... dunlop.htm

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Thanks, Fishtown... I'm leaning towards using those frets as I think they're the closest I'm going to get to the original.
Tom

OK. I've got all of the parts ordered bar the frets. My plan is to... 1.) painting the front and back of the headstock... tobacco brown. 2.) Ebonizing the fretboard. 3.) Cleaning and applying a satin clear-coat of the back of the neck. 4.) Refretting. In what order would you advise I perform these?

Also, the original nut is made of wood but is not in the best shape. I could reapply it (remember, I'm not going to make this a playable instrument at this point) but may replace it. Does anyone make wood nuts anymore or am l looking at making one?
Thanks,
Tom

I would go with bone or a synthetic. I have seen some instruments that have wood nuts and it usually because then original broke and the guitarist used what he could that was available. And that's wood. But you could use a piece of ebony or even rosewood. They still use ebony on violin family instruments.

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.